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Paradigm shift happens.
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« on: May 17, 2009, 02:09:08 PM »
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There seems to be a lot of varying views about the location of the Pillars of Hercules, but within Plato's dialogues it seems very clear that Solon is equating the pillars with the Strait of Gibraltar. Consider the following passages:

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This sea which is WITHIN the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other (where Atlantis is located) is a real sea" (Timaeus)

and

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Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya WITHIN the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia (Central Italy)." (Timaeus)

This establishes that WITHIN the Pillars of Hercules is a sea, portions of Africa (Libya) as far as Egypt, and Central Italy, which seems a clear designation of the Mediterranean Sea and the surrounding coastal regions.

Meanwhile OUTSIDE the Pillars of Hercules appears to represent at the very least the Atlantic Ocean, given that both Atlantis—an island the size of Libya and Asia combined—as well as a continent opposite Atlantis exist there:

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An island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean. This sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent" (Timaeus)

Is there another interpretation for this passage in Timaeus? Did Solon misrepresent the original Egyptian account?

I invite others to offer their views on the location of the pillars as well as provide the reasoning behind the selection of an alternate site.

-Doug
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 11:41:10 PM by Doug Fisher »

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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2009, 12:42:28 PM »
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Gibraltar is Pillars of Hercules!
The map in the link indicates path of pre-flood ships from Gibraltar (Pillars of Hercules) to the golden City.
http://www.cosmogeology.ge/chapter.htm
The map indicates even trident mountains!
Modern coordinates of the "trident peaks" about 400 miles off Portugal at the half way from the Gibraltar (Pillars of Hercules) to the Golden City:
1. Left peak – Latitude: 36 : 51 N,    Longitude: 14 : 26 W.
2. Middle peak – Latitude: 37 N,    Longitude: 14 : 10 W.
3. Right peak – Latitude: 37 : 02 N, Longitude: 13 : 52 W.
K.L. Margiani
Tbilisi, Georgia
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 10:40:12 PM by K.Margiani »
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2009, 12:32:43 PM »
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according to this i have read a few an the location are scatter'd, but this is more acurate.!

http://www.unmuseum.org/atlantis.htm
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2009, 09:52:41 AM »
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There are two meanings for it in Greek:

1)  The literal geographic meaning is the Straits of Gibraltar.

2)  The symbolic meaning is "the limit of Greek Geographical knowledge", and to be outside of "the pillars" can imply residing in lands and oceans beyond Greek knowledge.

In Plato's use it appears to be a specific geographical meaning, as it's used relative to a specific description of where the extent was, of the Atlantean empire.

"By a route obscure and lonely, Haunted by ill angels only,
Where an Eidolon, named Night, On a black throne reigns upright,
I have reached these lands but newly From an ultimate dim Thule —
From a wild weird clime, that lieth, sublime, Out of Space — out of Time." --Edgar Allen Poe
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2009, 07:45:18 AM »
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My source for the above was Ulf Erlingsson, although I'm still looking for which website of his I got it from.

"By a route obscure and lonely, Haunted by ill angels only,
Where an Eidolon, named Night, On a black throne reigns upright,
I have reached these lands but newly From an ultimate dim Thule —
From a wild weird clime, that lieth, sublime, Out of Space — out of Time." --Edgar Allen Poe
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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2009, 08:55:19 AM »
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"the limit of Greek Geographical knowledge", is very interisting as well as greek name of Poseidia - Poseidon. Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2009, 08:56:37 AM »
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One of the things that must be remembered is the tendecy of people as a whole to elaborate on things using their own experience as a guide. Today, with the vastness of the internet and the instant recall of information available to us, routinely pass on old information as current. Take any "urgent email forward" and look at the facts as compared to the text. We use stories that are years to decades old and simply inject the names and places that are familiar to us in place of what came before. Urban legends are built this way.

In the case of Plato's account of Atlantis. He suggest that it was Solon who originally heard the tale and that was hundreds of years earlier. Solon suggested that the story itself was thousands of years older than that. It would not be unreasonable for that story, the essence of which is "Somewhere to the west there is a city and their army invaded our land before that city was destroyed by natural phenomena.", to be taken by Plato and reapplied to his own time and place. What was to "the west" of Plato's Greece? The Atlantic ocean of course but what was to "the west" of the people who originally told that story? Was it the Atlantic? The Mediterranean? We don't know.

To insist that Plato's version of the Atlantis legend is gospel is to assume perfect translation of myth for not only hundreds of years but thousands of years through oral tradition alone. Impossible? no, just highly unlikely. It would make the Atlantis legend the most accurately transmitted oral story ever told.
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2009, 10:42:37 AM »
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To insist that Plato's version of the Atlantis legend is gospel is to assume perfect translation of myth for not only hundreds of years but thousands of years through oral tradition alone. Impossible? no, just highly unlikely. It would make the Atlantis legend the most accurately transmitted oral story ever told.
This is huge wrong ever told! It is not a oral story and legend. True part of the pre-flood history had been translated by egiptian priest(s) for Solon. Political fairy-tale about war between platinum age Atlantians and stone age wild tribes (proto-greeks) is fantasy by Plato.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 11:56:31 PM by K.Margiani »
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2009, 11:33:15 PM »
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In the case of Plato's account of Atlantis. He suggest that it was Solon who originally heard the tale and that was hundreds of years earlier. Solon suggested that the story itself was thousands of years older than that. It would not be unreasonable for that story, the essence of which is "Somewhere to the west there is a city and their army invaded our land before that city was destroyed by natural phenomena.", to be taken by Plato and reapplied to his own time and place. What was to "the west" of Plato's Greece? The Atlantic ocean of course but what was to "the west" of the people who originally told that story? Was it the Atlantic? The Mediterranean? We don't know.

I pointed out in my article how I think that the description of the world in Timaeus actually lends credibility to the possibility that Plato was accurately recounting genuine dialogues. Plato believed the earth to be spherical and yet Timaeus clearly relates a concept of the world dating back to Solon's time. Of course the fact that Timaeus overemphasizes this distinction could be a sign of Plato's cunning, but if Solon did indeed retell the account from an Egyptian source, there is little doubt he reconciled it to his world view, such as associating the 'opposite continent' to the 'boundless continent' believed to surround the 'true ocean'.

Whether that original continent described by the Egyptians was somehow a relating of the land surrounding the Mediterranean or a large continent beyond as Solon clearly states, well that's another matter.

-Doug

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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2009, 09:31:32 AM »
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http://www.independent.com.mt/news.asp?newsitemid=91019

Interesting article about the possibility that the Pillars are actually to be found in Sicily and not the Strait of Gibralter...which could put Atlantis inside the mediterranean.

(put this into the wrong thread originally...)
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2009, 10:57:29 AM »
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http://www.independent.com.mt/news.asp?newsitemid=91019

Interesting article about the possibility that the Pillars are actually to be found in Sicily and not the Strait of Gibralter...which could put Atlantis inside the mediterranean.

(put this into the wrong thread originally...)

Dear friend!
There are lots of similar commercial fairy-tales in the internet to rise lots of money!
K.M.
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2009, 08:28:42 AM »
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You know, when you reply to every post with how stupid it is or that it's equivalent to a "fairy tale", it really undermines your own validity. I don't know if there's a language issue here or what but you need to chill a bit.
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2009, 09:26:25 AM »
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You know, when you reply to every post with how stupid it is or that it's equivalent to a "fairy tale", it really undermines your own validity. I don't know if there's a language issue here or what but you need to chill a bit.
You could reply to every post as well. My replies connected to my knowledge. your replies are not prohibited as well!
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2009, 01:12:50 PM »
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I wasn't specifically referring to your habit of replying to every post...this is a good thing and should engender discussion. You tend to treat all other opinions as if they were flat out wrong though and leave no room for discussion, which defeats the point. When you say "This is huge wrong ever told!" that doesn't lend itself to discussion, it's just a statement that you're right, we're wrong and that's how it is.

I wouldn't expect a lot of reply to statements like that, is all I'm saying. That's all i'm going to say about it though since I don't suspect that Doug wants this turning into a big argument.
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2009, 08:06:53 AM »
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Schatenjager I've sent for you proof (attach file) about Atlantis! Mankind had not ever, something like this proof!
This is not a theory. The research is proof! It has references by lots of intellectual minds. It means the research is truth. Truth is victorious!
To understend evrything you need good knowledge in Geology, Physics, Chemistry, Astronomy.
K.M.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 10:28:40 AM by K.Margiani »
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