Poll
Question: If Atlantis had existed, where do you believe it is most likely located today?
South America - Mesopotamia, Argentina (Doug Fisher) 2 - (25%)
South America Altiplano, Bolivia (Jim Allen) 2 - (25%)
Antarctica (Rand & Rose Flem-Ath) 1 - (12.5%)
Black Sea (Christian and Siegfried Schoppe) 1 - (12.5%)
Submerged in the Atlantic Ocean (Mid) (Eastern) 1 - (12.5%)
Iceland 1 - (12.5%)
Ireland (Ulf Erlingsson) 0
Thera 0
South China Sea (Prof. Arysio Nunes dos Santos) 0
Cuba (Andrew Collins) 0
Cypress (Robert Sarmast) 0
Mexico 0
Other 0
Total Voters: 8

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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2010, 07:42:59 PM »
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Welcome aboard lone77star,

I did alter the poll slightly, adding links to distinguish between sites in the Atlantic.
I hope this will suffice.  Smiley

-Doug

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« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2010, 11:31:10 AM »
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1 vote for Antarctica.

Why?

1. Antarctica is a White Island (Atala/Aztlan)
2.  Antarctica is at the underworld (Atala)
3.  Antarctica is one of the only two locations in the navel of the sea it being located at the crossroads of all longitudinal lines (Ogygia)
4.  Antarctica knows the depths of every sea (Ogygia)
5. Antarctica is at the South Pole and therefore holds the pillar of heaven (Ogygia).
6. Antarctica holds the world on it's shoulders (Ogygia)
7. Antarctica is an island continent in the Atlantic beyond the pillars of Hercules (Atlantis)
8. Antarctica is as big as Libya and Asia put together (Atlantis)
9.  Antarctica is in the middle of the Real Sea surrounded by a boundless continent (Atlantis/Ogygia)
10.  Antarctica was ice free during the time stated by Plato (Atlantis)
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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2010, 01:21:23 PM »
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Hi BMP,

Okay, you've piqued my curiosity. You forced me to perform some very in-depth research—read "scanned Wikipedia"—and what I found is fairly interesting though I am having trouble with certain aspects, especially Plutarch's assertion that it was located five days off the coast of Britain, if that is indeed the accurate interpretation. That would almost coincide with Iceland. (Don't read this ciggy. Stop)

Anyway, should you get the chance, I think it would be great if you could start a new topic on this subject. It definitely shares some aspects related to Atlantis. If you do start the topic, please post a reply here with a link.

Thanks,
Doug


EditNew Topic: Ogygia / Atlantis
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 03:10:06 PM by Doug Fisher, Reason: Added link to new topic »

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« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2010, 10:13:42 AM »
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Hi BMP,

Okay, you've piqued my curiosity. You forced me to perform some very in-depth research—read "scanned Wikipedia"—and what I found is fairly interesting though I am having trouble with certain aspects, especially Plutarch's assertion that it was located five days off the coast of Britain, if that is indeed the accurate interpretation. That would almost coincide with Iceland. (Don't read this ciggy. Stop)


Hehe, well on the linguistic/etymological side, an evaluation of Mayan legend shows that in their view there were many "Atlantises" (one legend alone mentioned four distinct ones in the same breath of recital), which in turn suggests that an Atlantic culture or proto-culture was in the habit of global wanderlust and name-dropping the same place-name wherever they went.  We see, for example, the "TAURUS" mountains in AnaTOLia; we see TURaikos; we see ETRURia; we see the TYRol; we see the TYRhenian sea; the ATLAS mountains in Africa; Andalus in Spain; "Thule" which was likely Iceland (specifically the Irish name for Iceland as "Tille"); TARA in Ireland itself; TOR as a generic hilltop fort in Gaelic; TULAN in Mayan; AzTLan in Nahuatl...

The wiggly confusion of it all is that some of the "Atlantis" place-names could have described the same places, while most of them described different ones.  What we tend to focus on here is which described SOLON's "Atlantis", and for that I find the South American one to be the most satisfactory with regard to matching geographical features of the land mass--although if one follows the Nahuatl as being the closest etymologically to "Atlantis" (the least amount of mutation of the name from Solon's name for the place, "Aztlan", "Atlan", or "Atitlan"), then we have intriguing pointers to North America rather than South, as Mexica legend as a standard refers to their "Aztlan" homeland having been north of Mexico.  Then again, if there had been a pole shift concurrent with the "Atlantean flood", then we're back to South America, QED.

"By a route obscure and lonely, Haunted by ill angels only,
Where an Eidolon, named Night, On a black throne reigns upright,
I have reached these lands but newly From an ultimate dim Thule
From a wild weird clime, that lieth, sublime, Out of Space out of Time." --Edgar Allen Poe
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« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2010, 10:31:34 AM »
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And of course the Aztlan of Nahuatl, could have been a way-point between Solon's Atlantis and the Mexican location (which also has its own "Atlan" on Mexico's east coast), which opens the door wide open as to where, geographically, it could have been.

"By a route obscure and lonely, Haunted by ill angels only,
Where an Eidolon, named Night, On a black throne reigns upright,
I have reached these lands but newly From an ultimate dim Thule
From a wild weird clime, that lieth, sublime, Out of Space out of Time." --Edgar Allen Poe
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« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2010, 11:16:13 AM »
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Hehe, well on the linguistic/etymological side, an evaluation of Mayan legend shows that in their view there were many "Atlantises" (one legend alone mentioned four distinct ones in the same breath of recital), which in turn suggests that an Atlantic culture or proto-culture was in the habit of global wanderlust and name-dropping the same place-name wherever they went.  We see, for example, the "TAURUS" mountains in AnaTOLia; we see TURaikos; we see ETRURia; we see the TYRol; we see the TYRhenian sea; the ATLAS mountains in Africa; Andalus in Spain; "Thule" which was likely Iceland (specifically the Irish name for Iceland as "Tille"); TARA in Ireland itself; TOR as a generic hilltop fort in Gaelic; TULAN in Mayan; AzTLan in Nahuatl...

The wiggly confusion of it all is that some of the "Atlantis" place-names could have described the same places, while most of them described different ones.  What we tend to focus on here is which described SOLON's "Atlantis", and for that I find the South American one to be the most satisfactory with regard to matching geographical features of the land mass--although if one follows the Nahuatl as being the closest etymologically to "Atlantis" (the least amount of mutation of the name from Solon's name for the place, "Aztlan", "Atlan", or "Atitlan"), then we have intriguing pointers to North America rather than South, as Mexica legend as a standard refers to their "Aztlan" homeland having been north of Mexico.  Then again, if there had been a pole shift concurrent with the "Atlantean flood", then we're back to South America, QED.

The first half of your post makes perfect sense and seems a strong possibility, but I also have to allow that the actual name provided by the Egyptians was not "Atlantis" and may have been a simple descriptor similar to "sea peoples". Still it is reasonable to consider that Solon applied the name Atlas because it was similar to a name provided by the Egyptian priest. And if this "Atlas" was a key figure in establishing an empire stretching across the Americas and islands of the Atlantic, it makes perfect sense that site names would carry that influence. Is there any possibility that "Aztlan" could be derived from the name of its founder?

The second half of your post has me a bit confused however, since the poll still shows one vote for Iceland.  Cheesy

-Doug

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« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2010, 11:51:31 AM »
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The first half of your post makes perfect sense and seems a strong possibility, but I also have to allow that the actual name provided by the Egyptians was not "Atlantis" and may have been a simple descriptor similar to "sea peoples". Still it is reasonable to consider that Solon applied the name Atlas because it was similar to a name provided by the Egyptian priest. And if this "Atlas" was a key figure in establishing an empire stretching across the Americas and islands of the Atlantic, it makes perfect sense that site names would carry that influence. Is there any possibility that "Aztlan" could be derived from the name of its founder?

The second half of your post has me a bit confused however, since the poll still shows one vote for Iceland.  Cheesy

-Doug

The personification of the root particle "TUR" is suggested in the Persian legend "Shahnameh", for Turaj who was the brother of Araj, both sons of a ruler named "Feredun".  Araj came to be the founding father of the "Aryan" race, and Turaj the founding father of the "Turyan" race, in that legend.

In my hypothesis, the name of Turaj is influenced by the Central Asian root word for the original pastoral culture of Central Asia (echoed in words like "taurus" for cattle), although the personnified Turaj could indeed have played a part in later migrations and the naming of various place-named by the Turanic culture.  It may have been in the spirit of "We dedicate this new place to our ancestor TUR", a name which would have permuted similarly to how the TUR root would have permuted in the given location.  So you could have a TULAN named after a TULAN ancestor, or an Atlan named after an Atlan ancestor, etc.  In a later morphing of the foundation legend it could have evolved to say that the founding ancestor was present at the city-state's founding itself.  If a Turanic trade mission were visiting Egypt, they may have recounted such a legend to their Egyptian hosts.  This wouldn't strictly mean a literal Atlas was a literal founder of Atlantis (or Aztlan the man founding Aztlan the kingdom), but rather that legend would reflect it as a gear-slip from a proto-legend similar in nature to the Persian Shahnameh's records of Central Asian people.

On the Iceland vote, it's somewhat arbitrary for me, since I see Atlantis as a multiplex, rather than simplex, phenomenon of anthropology and human migrations.  I could entertain many Atlantis theories concurrently, restricting only one of them to the tale recounted to Solon (in which case then yes, I do pick Rio De La Plata--which would infer that in order for the Mexica to not be complete morons, there had been a pole shift confusing the directions of "north" and "south" for them).

"By a route obscure and lonely, Haunted by ill angels only,
Where an Eidolon, named Night, On a black throne reigns upright,
I have reached these lands but newly From an ultimate dim Thule
From a wild weird clime, that lieth, sublime, Out of Space out of Time." --Edgar Allen Poe
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« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2010, 12:27:19 PM »
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Thanks again for the info, my thinking was simply that if Solon suggested that Atlantis was named after a character named Atlas, then this was a carry over from the Egyptian account. Of course Romulus and even the Greek Atlas have the commonality of being incorporated into toponyms, but I wasn't sure if there were any known instances of Nahuatl incorporation of names in like manner, although it seemed an easy assumption to make.

And as for your vote, I may not have been as confused about it as I let on. I imagine you partially suspected as much.  Smiley

-Doug

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« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2010, 12:49:39 PM »
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Most Nahuatl toponyms are descriptive, which in the case of Atlan or Atitlan is "City by the Water", or the more famous Tenochtitlan:  "City by the Rock Cactus Fruit".  The legendary Mexica homeland of "Aztlan" is proposed to have meant "Place of Egrets".  Unfortunately that descriptive doesn't narrow down the location of Aztlan by much as ubiquitous as egrets were over most of the world.

Some others:

Colhuacan:  Place of Snakes
Tolucan:  Place of (the god) Tolo (Interestingly, Po Tolo was unseen companion of the star Sirius for the Dogon in Africa, Tolo in their case meaning "star")
Naucalpan:  Place of the Four Houses
Acapulco:  At the Big Reeds
...etc.



"By a route obscure and lonely, Haunted by ill angels only,
Where an Eidolon, named Night, On a black throne reigns upright,
I have reached these lands but newly From an ultimate dim Thule
From a wild weird clime, that lieth, sublime, Out of Space out of Time." --Edgar Allen Poe
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« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2010, 01:22:15 PM »
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Thanks ciggy,

I don't know how I missed it. 'Tolucan' is the example I was looking for, a Nahuatl toponym incorporating the name of a person or god.

-Doug

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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2010, 04:46:09 PM »
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Yeah, the evidence for African-Mesoamerican trade contact is pretty much incontravertible right now:  the Olmec statues, the cocaine and nicotene in the bone marrow of the Pharaohs, and a Tolo reference showing a Dogon-Maya link just fits the pattern.

"By a route obscure and lonely, Haunted by ill angels only,
Where an Eidolon, named Night, On a black throne reigns upright,
I have reached these lands but newly From an ultimate dim Thule
From a wild weird clime, that lieth, sublime, Out of Space out of Time." --Edgar Allen Poe
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« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2011, 09:35:23 PM »
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Hello Everyone,

I say Mexico  Wink
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« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2011, 10:02:52 PM »
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Hello Jesse and welcome aboard,

Good to see you followed up with a post of your theory.
I'll check it out as soon as I get a chance. Looks interesting.

-Doug

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« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2011, 09:38:24 PM »
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I've flipped... I'm on board with Jim Allen's Altiplano hypothesis now.  The ruins of Tiwanaku are just too convincing for me to ignore.


"By a route obscure and lonely, Haunted by ill angels only,
Where an Eidolon, named Night, On a black throne reigns upright,
I have reached these lands but newly From an ultimate dim Thule
From a wild weird clime, that lieth, sublime, Out of Space out of Time." --Edgar Allen Poe
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« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2011, 12:16:44 PM »
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Hi ciggy,

It's a very interesting theory. The only aspect that seems problematic is the logistics of having Atlantis' fleet of warships and military personnel that far from and above the sea holding sway over large portions of the Mediterranean.

Plato's account places the city within 5.7 miles of the sea and allowed that merchant ships and triremes entered the city day and night. It is really hard to picture 1,200 large ships each said to maintain a 200-man crew being ported up and down the Andes, several each day.

-Doug

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